IN THIS EPISODE:

After decades of marriage, motherhood, and putting everyone else’s needs first, Katie found herself struggling with desire and feeling increasingly disconnected from her husband. She had learned to people-please, avoid conflict, and say yes even when she didn’t really want to—until intimacy began to feel more like an obligation than connection.

Katie shares how Doing It Together helped her understand the impact of shame, resentment, social conditioning, and self-silencing on her intimate life. She talks about learning to speak up about what she wants, practice self-compassion, and create a marriage where both partners’ needs matter.

REFERENCES:

Janna’s Programs: Doing It Together, Wanting It More Foundations, Intro Videos for Men & Women

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Janna Denton-Howes: M welcome back to the Doing It Together podcast. It’s great to have you here. Katie and I have just been talking about how I am going to be driving my oldest daughter to university in a month. So it’s been really nice to kind of have some support. Katie, thank you for starting our conversation that way.

Katie: I’ll support you from afar.

Janna Denton-Howes: Oh, man, this is, it’s tricky time of life. I, I was pretty young. I had my daughter when I was 25. And so I am, in my friend group. I am the first to do a lot, you know, first to have teenagers, and now I’m the first to have a kid le home. So I’m kind of flailing around with not a lot of guidance. So any. Anytime someone will talk to me about it, I latch on to them. Okay, let’s now transition, ah, into talking about, well, sex, which you can’t really segue so easily into that.

Katie: Not easily, but.

Janna Denton-Howes: No but, Katie, why don’t you, before we get started into that, just share a little bit about yourself.

Katie: Okay. I am, ah, just. My husband and I just celebrated our 43rd wedding anniversary. We’ve been together for 45 years, which is like. It’s, I was just your daughter’s age. How is that pos. How is that possible? We’ve had a great life. We still continue to have a great life. We live on Martha’s Vineyard. we have two beautiful children. both are married. They have blessed us with. My son has two, my daughter has one. And as you and I were just talking about, they are my. They are my joy. I am currently retired. I work in a great, ah, ladies boutique here on the island. That keeps me busy. And, I don’t know what else you want to. I’m. I’m the one of three kids in my family. The middle child and, the peacekeeper. And, yeah, there you have it. That’s pretty much I don’t know what else you need to know.

Janna Denton-Howes: That’s perfect. I love that you know so much about yourself that you know. You’re the peacekeeper. That is.

Katie: I am the peacekeeper, yeah.

Janna Denton-Howes: Oh, that’s a tough one. Yikes. Okay, so speaking of your childhood and your siblings and all of that, take us back to those early days, whatever you can remember were you were you told about sex? Were you taught anything at school or at home?

Katie: Well, I am 67 years old. Proudly 67 years old. and I remember, it was fifth or sixth grade, they had that movie that they have where girls learn about, menstruation and the boys are off doing something else. And then in high school, you have sex ed. did we talk about sex in my house? No, it was not brought up. the only thing I remember my mom saying is that, you will be a virgin when you get married. And if. Since we didn’t talk about sex, I thought, okay, maybe it’s a bad thing. I knew nothing, no education, except for what I learned in high school, so. But high school doesn’t tell you about, a female’s anatomy at all. Or, having an orgasm. What is that? You don’t even. It’s like, okay, what’s the body part that makes that happen? Even just the simplest thing. Mom and dad, never. Mom. very patriarchal family. never said anything about kissing, how to kiss a boy. I don’t even know how you give instructions on that, but I had. I remember the first time I kissed a boy when I was in sixth grade. The shame and guilt I felt afterwards. I was like, this is really strange. Why do I feel this way? so we weren’t. It wasn’t talked about at all. And, I disappointed my mother because I was not a virgin when I got married at the age of 24. I remember, and I think I shared this in, doing it together, that my mom. On my 18th birth or 19th birthday, I can’t remember which one. When I was in college, she wrote me this beautiful birthday card. How proud she was of me, and all the things that I have accomplished and how well I was doing in college. Just like, wow, for my mom. And that summer, she and I were sitting and we talked. We were talking, and I felt okay. I feel safe. This is my mom. I should be able to talk to her about stuff. and I told her I wasn’t a virgin. Well, she got up, stood up, looked at me and said, that birthday card. And what I said in that birthday card, I take everything back. And, she walked out of the room and we never talked about it again. the shame and the guilt that I felt was like, you’re kidding me. I thought this was supposed to be something wonderful and beautiful. And my first time, which wasn’t wonderful and beautiful. It hurt. It was messy, and the guy got up and left. I was like, oh, this is really just such a wonderful experience. So, then there were a few others. I did not sleep with that many people. But then I met my husband, when I was 21 and he is very loving, he’s very caring and he’s sensitive and he’s a romantic. And I think I would feel differently about sex if I had met him first. So.

Janna Denton-Howes: Yeah, it makes me wonder, you know, our parents, they just do the best they can and we’ve done the best we can and hopefully our kids will improve a little bit on what we were able to accomplish. It just makes me think, wow, like what she, how she was raised, that, that was so ingrained in her and there must have been just so much fear around sex and maybe pregnancy and what, you know, what could happen to you if you did get pregnant or, you know, just.

Katie: Yeah, no, I would, I absolutely agree. So with that in mind, and then with, as I said, my two kids, I didn’t want them, especially my daughter, to have that experience that I did. So I did my best to educate them and you know, saying to them, not, I did not say don’t have sex. I said to them, it’s a very special part of you that you are sharing with someone. Just don’t give it away. And my daughter, when she was in high school, she had her first love freshman year in high school, she had a crush on this young man. They started dating junior year and I bought her birth control because I knew that, I mean, times have changed so much that I knew something was going to. They were going to have sex and they did. And I did not want her life to change by getting pregnant. And I. Friends of mine are like, how could you do that? I was like, kids are kids. Stop and think about us, what we did when we were kids. Mh. Right. and my son, I can’t. I can’t really, because again, here I go. I fall into that category was different for a guy than it is for. For. It’s different for a young man than it is for a young woman. But I did. He, he is very sensitive like his dad and like me. And I maybe didn’t think I had to worry about him, you know, but I did also make sure that, you know, just, just be kind and loving and be careful.

Janna Denton-Howes: We are, we just don’t know what we’re doing, do we? Like, we are given no guidance.

Katie: Nope.

Janna Denton-Howes: We’re just fumbling around trying to figure this stuff out and we’re just gonna do A little bit better than our parents did, and our kids are gonna do a little better than us and we’re gonna have some, you know, gradual generational change is what we’re going for, right?

Katie: Absolutely. That’s what we’re going for.

Janna Denton-Howes: Yes. So you didn’t have a great first experience like most women, unfortunately.

Katie: Right.

Janna Denton-Howes: And what kind of impact do you think that had on you moving forward?

Katie: I remember, It’s so funny because this morning, I woke up thinking of when I first met my husband. And August 1st is, 44 years ago. He proposed to me and I was trying to remember the time frame and take me back to, you know, when sex with him was a lot of fun and we talked about this and doing it together. and then it. Somewhere along the lines, it, it changed. but I know that the experiences I had with the men before impacted me in a way that I, I guess I was angry. We talked about that and doing it together, my experiences. I were angry and I was. You know. what I realized is that I had. Had put all of the, the prior experiences, kind of lumped them all on my husband and then was like, that’s not fair to him. it wasn’t his fault, it was my fault. So it did, it did, took away the sex drive. And for many years, many, many years, I felt like I was broken, that there was something wrong with me, that my sex drive was gone, that I was not interested in at all. so. And that’s how we found our way. He found our way to you. And ah, so much has opened for me since then in realizing my feelings and the resentment that I held towards my mom, the, the people that I had experience, had intimate relationships with, and even resenting myself somewhat because I didn’t have that voice that said, no, I don’t want to. Do you know what I mean?

Janna Denton-Howes: Oh, we all know what you mean, Katie.

Katie: I’m learning that there are so many women that feel the way that I have.

Janna Denton-Howes: Oh yes. Oh yes. Most of us, to some degree.

Katie: I know. And there, there is comfort in knowing. Having learned that I am. Having discovered that I am not broken. There is such a relief in knowing that.

Janna Denton-Howes:Yeah. Because I am guessing the first time you had sex, it wasn’t because so much you were, you know, so horny, you wanted to jump his bones or you were just so curious and exploratory and so open and excited. It was probably mixed with wanting to feel wanted and wanting to feel Seen and valued and wanting. That sort of attraction and, attention from a guy.

Katie: Yeah, yeah.

Janna Denton-Howes: So right from the beginning, our culture doesn’t teach women and girls to understand our bodies, how our sexuality works, what our desires are, what our needs are, what our wants are, what brings us pleasure. Pleasure. Nope. It is to really satisfy somebody else. Like he just got up and left.

Katie: Right.

Janna Denton-Howes: And then we’re treated by society, which in your case was represented by your mom, unfortunately, that now we’re like sluts, like floozies or something.

Katie: I was a bad girl, you know. Shame on you.

Janna Denton-Howes: Yeah, yeah, but you’re just following a script, right? You’re just, you’re just sort of like, well, this is what you do and this is how I have value, in the eyes of men. And so right from the beginning, we are set up to have no idea what we like. And then we’re just sort of flown around by the wind of other men’s desires.

Katie: You know, God forbid you should say no to the guy in the moment.

Janna Denton-Howes: Yeah.

Katie: Because then it’s like you’re a tease.

Janna Denton-Howes: Yeah. Right.

Katie: I mean, it’s just. It. Yeah.

Janna Denton-Howes: And then when you. When things peter off. So do you remember when things shifted for you in your current relationship?

Katie: after kids. Yeah, yeah. After kids, I. At the end of the day, making sure that I think there are many women that know this. you have lists, you have your children’s list. Each one or however many kids you have, you have. If you have pets, you’ve got that list. You have your house list, you have your husband’s list. And then you have your list. And at the end of the day, all you want to do is go to sleep and your husband wants to have sex. It’s like, oh, no, I just want to go to sleep. And he’s had a rough day. And it’s the one time that you guys can actually have a connection and it just didn’t happen. And it’s just, it just was constantly at me and I would make excuses instead of just saying, I would love to, but I’m just too tired. I don’t have anything in me. And so. And then you wake up the next day and guess what? The lists are still there. They never go away.

Janna Denton-Howes: Yeah. He wakes up with an erection. Come on.

Katie: Right? Exactly. He’s ready to go. And it’s like, oh my God, no, I gotta get up and make the beds and get the breakfast and do d. it’s endless.

Janna Denton-Howes: It’s just another chore that Is it’s a need that.

Katie: Exactly.

Janna Denton-Howes: That someone, once provided.

Katie: Trying to explain that. I don’t think explain is the right word, or trying to let my husband know that it’s not him was very hard. But then it became him because he just kept pushing.

Katie: And that just made it really hard. Very hard for both of us. For both of us.

Janna Denton-Howes: What did it look like? What was the pattern.

Katie: Ah.

Janna Denton-Howes: In your relationship, did you just stop having sex altogether? Would it be once a month? Would you have circular arguments? Would there be sort of silent tension?

Katie: Yes, yes, yes. And yes. we would have sex. We would, make the time. I would acquiesce. And sometimes it was very pleasurable and other times I said the word And other times it was just out of, duty and. Which doesn’t make him feel loved and needed and what he. He needed to feel desired. but that’s all I had. That’s all I was able to give.

Janna Denton-Howes: and give is the word there, because that’s what it was. It was giving something you weren’t taking.

Katie: Right.

Janna Denton-Howes: From the experience.

Katie: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I remember nights where I would love. He like, you want a back rub? And I, remembered what back rubs usually would then lead into. And I would say, yeah, but no, I would say, actually I would say, no, don’t need one, thanks. Or finally I got to the point of okay, if it’s just a back rub, that sounds great. It’s hard. It’s been. Interesting to navigate through. and even right now, after doing it together, it’s also a little hard to navigate through.

Janna Denton-Howes: Yeah, it, yeah. That is many years, Many years of patterns and resentments and frustration and miscommunications and just lack of education, really what it boils down to.

Katie: Right. I didn’t. Even though I, you know, I felt all of those things. and I still remember hearing my father’s voice because my mom died at a very young age. She was 54 when she died of breast cancer. And dad married. Got, married a second time to an old high school sweetheart. And he would happily say that second time around is, you know, so much better. and he would tell me that your mother was rigid. It’s like, okay, I don’t think I really want to hear any more about that. But I was at the. At an age where I knew exactly what he was talking about. Talking about. And I just thought that was a really awful thing to say. because he had. Dad had no. And I adored My father, he had no ide. As I said, patriarchal family. Had no idea what mom with three kids, what life was like because my sister’s two years older and I have a brother who’s five years younger. So she had her hands full with, you know, for, for a couple of years with two. A two year old and an infant. But dad. So dad had no idea he would work all week and then go play golf on the weekends. M. Yeah.

Janna Denton-Howes: So he had play in his life.

Katie: Yeah.

Janna Denton-Howes: And you know, intimacy and sex needs to be in the category of play. And if you have no play on your own, if you’re not, you know, exploring time alone, a hobby, spending time with friends, just staring off into space without, without a list nagging you, then it, you can’t enter that place. Space, which is intimacy. So that’s what a lot of women are experiencing.

Katie: Yeah. and it’s interesting when with intimacy there’s so many, I think there’s so many different types of intimacy and different ways of making connection. And my husband, has he shared something with me a couple of months ago that I was like, okay, you’re telling me this after 43 years of marriage. It was the, it was in an emotional connection that it was like he, it just I can’t even describe how open and vulnerable he was. That it was amazing. I felt closer to him in that moment than I had in a long time because he was sharing his emotions. And I think, and I know you’ll correct me if I’m wrong, but emotional connection is so important to women.

Janna Denton-Howes: I think it’s important to men too. I just think our society has told them it’s not important, but I think it’s got it. I think it’s important to humans.

Katie: Yeah, it’s just. And I don’t think he’s ever done. He’s in the 40 many years that I’ve known him, I don’t think he’s ever really shared and opened up like that before. So it was really pretty amazing. And I. And I know he’s done it more often because I’ve asked him to and I’ve said to him that, wow, I felt really close to you.

Janna Denton-Howes: So, that vulnerability is just. Oh, it’s good.

Katie: It’s really good. It’s really good. It’s hard for some people, I know that. But when you’re vulnerable it is like to quote, my higher power, Brene Brown, who I know you’re a fan of.

Janna Denton-Howes: Ah, same.

Katie: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean it is. It is just, authentic self. You are truly being your. Yourself in that moment when you are being vulnerable and sharing what is actually in here and pounded to, you know, my heart. and there’s freedom in that. Yeah.

Janna Denton-Howes: You know, I have a. I have a funny story. So my husband is very sensitive, and I’m very sensitive, and so when something’s upsetting him, it. I know immediately he can deny it, but I know what’s going on.

Katie: Gotcha.

Janna Denton-Howes: So he came up to. To the bedroom. I was just getting ready this morning. And he had that energy, the energy of, like, something’s going on. And, you know, I said, dwayne, what’s. What’s going on? Like, did you get some bad news? And he’s like, nope, nope, everything’s fine. I’m fine. And then a little bit later, he was telling me he’s. My mom’s out of town, and she’s got a. A garden that she has in our property, and he’s watering it for her. And he said, your mom has a. And she’s gone for about three weeks and said, you, mom has a lot of tomatoes. And then I suddenly realized, oh, you’re stressed about the tomatoes. You don’t know what to do. Because my mom, bless her heart, sometimes she does listen to the podcast. Hey, mom. Love you. very precious about her vegetables.

Katie: Got it.

Janna Denton-Howes: I think gardeners can. I’m not a gardener, but I think gardeners can understand that. And especially when they get ripe and there’s a crop and you’ve been, you know, nurturing them for months. You know, it’s. And so he was stressed about. But what to do with all these tomatoes that needed to be, you know, she’s gone. What are we gonna do? And it’s funny, but the moment he shared that. I think he was feeling silly for feeling so stressed about these tomatoes, but the moment he shared that with me, I felt permission to be human, too. I felt permission that I could be upset about something kind of so. So small as that, you know? And then we worked it out together. We were going to take a photo of the tomatoes and text it to

Katie: my mom, ask her, that’s just. I have it. That is so funny, because we. A raised garden bed here. And he was so proud because last year he. He, planted it with our grandson when he was living here. And he was so excited. A couple of weeks ago, he’s like, oh, I’ve got five tomatoes coming. And he went out to check on. He’s like, they were ready Getting, they were reading up and then this week he went out and he’s like, they’re gone. they’re gone. What? Who, What? Where’d they go? So we’ve got deer. So we’re thinking. I’m thinking the deer. He was. Well, I shouldn’t laugh, but he, like your husband was very sensitive and he just. So I just, I was like, I’m really sorry about your tomatoes.

Janna Denton-Howes: It’s super sweet. It’s, you know, very sweet. It’s super sweet because that’s what vulnerability is. That, you know, even though it feels silly to, to, to say it out loud, it’s still what’s in your heart. It’s still truth for you.

Katie: Exactly.

Janna Denton-Howes: Yeah. And then to be able to be met with, you know, compassion and not someone just saying, oh, that’s ridiculous. Like, why are you worrying about that? You know?

Katie: Well, years ago I learned that when you feel feelings are your own and for someone to say that, you know, you shouldn’t feel that way. Well, I do.

Janna Denton-Howes: Yeah.

Katie: You know, those, they’re my feelings and. Yeah. So I don’t want to make fun of even, especially for him, sharing how. Now that he’s sharing how he’s feeling, I want that to continue. Yes. And so it’s like nurturing him to do that. So. And I need. I, I’m pretty, I think I’m pretty good at sharing my feelings. the anger feelings, not so much because anger and I don’t get along very well. again, growing up as a little girl. Don’t talk to me like that. Don’t, you know. Yeah. If you’re going to behave like that, go to your room and you know, older in life start. If you’re angry, you’re then known as a. So, I’m working. That’s another work in progress.

Janna Denton-Howes: Yeah. Yeah. Well, what have you learned about that?

Katie: anger, I always thought was like somebody yelling at you is, is one form of anger. But I think what I’ve learned is, And what my person that I’ve been working with has said it to me is mean what you say, but don’t be mean when you say it. So when I have that like feeling in my chest, tightness in my chest, where the anger, where anger comes, it’s okay, just pause, catch my breath and respond. Do not react. I just take a step back. and it’s okay to be angry. Working on that. It’s fine. because my biggest fear was that if I got angry that I would not be loved. Yeah.

Janna Denton-Howes: And that did play out in your childhood. You were sent away from the family.

Katie: Yep.

Janna Denton-Howes: Be by yourself.

Katie: Yep, exactly.

Janna Denton-Howes: Yeah. And as women, we’re taught that we need to put the relationship or really our partner’s feelings above our own. And so if we do have anger, that is not acceptable. And we need to kind of push that aside. I’ve been working on a bit of a model right now where you have, the horizontal line is your relationship regard. Regard for your relationship. And then the vertical axis is the self advocacy. And what we really want is both we want high self advocacy and. And we want high relationship regard. And I’m calling that quadrant the advocate. But then we also have other quadrants. So low self advocacy and high relationship regard is the pleaser. And that’s where a lot of women live because of our culture. But then you can also have high self advocacy and low relationship regard, which is where I go. And that’s the fighter. I can feel the fighter in me. I’m like, oh, there it comes. I’m gonna get real, real scrappy. And, interestingly, my husband is more of a pleaser, so it’s real fun when you’ve got a pleaser and a fighter in the sea.

Katie: Okay, got it, got it. I understand. Yeah. My husband and I are both Tauruses, so it’s. It makes for a very. Yeah, horns. Yeah.

Janna Denton-Howes: Lots of personal development. That’s what, you know, marriage offers is, growth opportunities. How about that?

Katie: Yes, absolutely.

Janna Denton-Howes: Where are you now in terms of your sexuality and learning about it? Like. So what are you contemplating? What are you working on?

Katie: my husband and I are working on finding a place where we are. Both our needs are met, that we, both are happy. because I remember I wrote, bio at the beginning of the doing it together course that it’s. Our marriage is good, but it could be better. I mean, I always think that things can be better. so they’re working on being very truthful. he is. I am the heart. It’s hard for me to express what I want. And, so I work really hard at that. And it’s not easy because I’ve been doing the people pleasing thing, for so many years that I know that for us to have a really healthy and happy marriage, that I need to speak up and say what I want. And, he’s finding a little bit challenging, I think, because he’s just stepping back and not trying to push. He is, we’re both being. Love the term that you use, being both Compassionate towards each other, finding compassion for oneself, which is. That’s a tough thing to learn. but I’m doing it. And it’s. It’s slow and steady. It’s, It’s a marathon, not a sprint. Ah, another great quote. so we are working on. We have our dates. I. If I don’t bring it up, he will remind me, which sometimes it’s like, really? Do you have to do that? but he’s holding me to this is what we’re supposed to do.

Janna Denton-Howes: Yes, but if he’s listening, he shouldn’t be doing that, so.

Katie: Well, that’s one of the questions I was going to ask on Wednesday. I was going to write the note and say, okay, is this okay, or what should I be doing? And I was like, okay, no, you’re not supposed to. Because that’s what I thought. You’re not supposed to be saying anything. I’m the one that’s supposed to bring it up.

Janna Denton-Howes: That’s right.

Katie: Thank you for bringing that. Letting. Clarifying that.

Janna Denton-Howes: Yeah.

Katie: but he knows that if I. I have a tendency not to, And in all fairness, I cannot not make a date with my husband, because that is the promise we made to each other. And, Or at least to even say, you know, I know we’re supposed to do this, but I’m not really. Family feeling.

Janna Denton-Howes: Yeah. Communicate it.

Katie: Yeah, exactly. And, And be comfortable with how it’s really for me to feel comfortable in what I say. So it lands on him. And however it lands on him, that’s for him to figure out to sort.

Janna Denton-Howes: That’s right. Oh, Katie’s growing.

Katie: It’s hard, Janet. This is not an easy thing, but it’s not. It’s. As you said, it’s going to take time. It doesn’t happen overnight.

Janna Denton-Howes: Oh, no. Oh, no. I mean, you’ve got 43 years. You know, just take half of that. 20 more years. How about that? Yeah, that’s a good compromise.

Katie: Yeah, I think so. Thanks. I’ll be sure to share that with him.

Janna Denton-Howes: Katie, thanks for coming on the podcast and sharing your journey. It’s been really great to have this conversation. Was there anything that you wanted to get to that we weren’t able to?

Katie: No, I don’t think so. I think m. We covered it. I just, You have said it in your podcasts and in the course, but I can’t thank you enough for changing my life and my husband’s life. Because we got to the point in our marriage that it was hard. It was both of us, emotionally hard. I mean, I emotionally left the marriage two, two, three years ago, and he felt it. so thank you. And the women that were on the course, they are fabulous. And I, will be sure to share what you do with many of the women that I know.

Janna Denton-Howes: Oh, thank you, Katie, and thanks for doing the full circle and coming back and having the courage to come on the podcast and share your story. I know it’s not easy to do, so thank you for joining me in this mission.

Katie: Happy to join you.

Janna Denton-Howes: Awesome. well, thank you, everyone, for listening right to the end, and we’ll talk to you in the next one. Bye for now.