IN THIS EPISODE:

Talking about sex can be hard—especially when you’re worried that saying what you really want will hurt your partner’s feelings or start an argument.

In this episode, Janna talks with Carrie and Ryan about the communication patterns that kept them stuck for years and what finally helped Carrie find her voice and Ryan learn to listen without reacting.

After 32 years together, they’re learning how to talk openly about sex, needs, and intimacy in their marriage. They share what it takes to speak honestly, listen with curiosity, and create a safer, more connected relationship where both partners can be heard.

REFERENCES:

Janna’s Programs: Doing It Together, Wanting It More Foundations, Intro Videos for Men & Women

LISTEN TO THE FULL EPISODE:

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speaker-0 (00:00:02)
Welcome back to the Doing It Together podcast. I am so excited. I am looking across the Zoom room at this lovely couple ⁓ sitting on a couch, big smiles, full of love. And ⁓ one of them looks a little nervous and one of them looks just ⁓ blabbergasted at the fact they’re doing that.

But I’m so grateful that Ryan and Carrie have agreed to come on. I actually got an email from Ryan with a little bit of an update because they did doing it together a while back ⁓ and he was asking for an episode on the podcast around ⁓ what does it look like long term and what do you do when you backslide a bit? And how do you stay on track? And I said, Well

Why don’t you and your wife come on the podcast and talk about it? And they agreed. So Ryan and Carrie, thank you so much for being here. Carrie, why don’t you start by sharing a little bit about yourself?

speaker-1 (00:01:06)
⁓ Okay. ⁓ well ⁓ I ⁓ am in my mid fifties ⁓ and we have been married for about thirty-three years. ⁓ we’ve got three kids. We live in North Carolina. for those of you who are in Canada, in Australia, with that great accent. ⁓ we’re in the United States ⁓ and ⁓ it’s beautiful and we’re in the mountains and we just love it here.

⁓ I grew up Catholic ⁓ and so coming into doing it together it ⁓ led to some different questions and different challenges for myself ⁓ and ⁓ a lot more reflecting and thinking. ⁓

So that’s generally about me. Any other generals that you wanna know?

speaker-0 (00:01:58)
That’s fantastic. Before we s hit record, I said, Can you be vague and and give a little intro? Because we like to keep things kind of anonymous and ⁓ we had a little chuckle around that. ⁓ Ryan, do you wanna share a little bit about yourself?

speaker-2 (00:02:11)
Sure, I’m also ⁓ in my mid fifties. ⁓ been married to this beautiful woman for thirty three years. ⁓ we did ⁓ doing it together ⁓ I think guess we ended in We started in February, so it was ⁓ I guess March when we went when we ended. ⁓ and which was right around our anniversary, which was nice. ⁓ and we’ve got three kids. ⁓

speaker-1 (00:02:25)
It is

speaker-1 (00:02:36)
So ⁓

Two grandchildren. Two grand two grandchildren. Yeah. Words speak here. We really share.

speaker-0 (00:02:43)
That’s wonderful.

speaker-2 (00:02:45)
⁓ We learned a lot, so we’re excited to share.

speaker-0 (00:02:49)
Hmm. So why don’t we start there? Why don’t we why don’t you each share a little bit about what really stood out for you during the program and what has stuck with you ⁓ over the last couple of months? Ryan, do you want to start?

speaker-1 (00:03:02)
Sure. ⁓

speaker-2 (00:03:04)
I guess my biggest thing was ⁓ you know, you take this class and and you think it’s gonna be about sex and that’s kind of where you’re looking for things to change. But much to my surprise and to my thrill is that it it made me a better person. I mean it taught me how to deal with things that I was dealing with and I I’m guilty of that. But I’m a great guy. I don’t do this, I don’t do that, that you know, why is why is this a problem?

speaker-1 (00:03:34)
I don’t rub a

speaker-2 (00:03:35)
Yeah, I yeah, I don’t have a bank. ⁓ but it it taught me by looking at stuff, you know, the stuff that I’ve been doing ⁓ has put a lot of pressure. A lot of ⁓ the problems that were created around sex as well as our relationship was my doing. ⁓ And Karen Carrie loves to hear that I always say the same things that you tell me, and she’s like, I’ve been saying this for fifteen, twenty years.

This is not new. How come it took somebody else to tell you? ⁓ so I took I took a I ⁓ did a lot of work on myself and came out of there a far better person, which made me a far better husband. ⁓ I think think that’s what my biggest takeaway is that it’s just it’s not just about the sex. The sex is a by product of of the relationship and we have probably the best relationship we’ve had in thirty years. ⁓

speaker-1 (00:04:18)
⁓

speaker-2 (00:04:32)
Yeah, lockdown.

speaker-1 (00:04:33)
Mm-hmm. ⁓

speaker-0 (00:04:34)
Beautiful. Thank you. What about you, Carrie? What’s what’s stuck for y for you over these last months?

speaker-1 (00:04:42)
over the past months, ⁓ I think what stuck for me was that ⁓ I needed to continue just to be more assertive. ⁓ I needed to ⁓ find my own voice ⁓ and be okay with that. ⁓ I needed to ⁓ investigate different things that ⁓ you know.

whether where pleasure is concerned or whether engaging with with Ryan is concerned. ⁓ you know, I just needed to stick to my own guns rather than folding, rather than just saying, okay, or letting something happen, or, ⁓ you know, doing what he wanted to do, ⁓ or or or staying quiet. You know, I I needed to learn to to speak.

And ⁓ so sometimes ⁓ when I do and I you know and and he’ll ask me, you know, how how are you working on the program? I don’t see it. And I’m like, the fact that I’m saying this to you, the fact that I did this, you know, I call specific conversations up and I say, I told you how I felt about this. That was big for me, and because I’m not used to that. So, you know, whereas he is working on

you know, his emotions and dealing with himself and ⁓ you know, being responsible ⁓ for his own ⁓ feelings that’s hard for him, but I’m I’m real good at that. But I’m working on ⁓ myself and saying it’s okay to want what I want and say what I want and I’m not being rude ever ⁓ it’s just, you know, it it takes practice, whether it’s with him

Whether it’s in the community, whether it’s at work, you know, it it’s interesting to be able to apply these same types of ⁓ practice throughout my life. And I think that makes it more positive ⁓ for me.

speaker-2 (00:06:54)
And I think the timing of the class is is ⁓ really strong to help that because while she’s working on her voice, I’m learning to listen. I’m learning to not react. I’m learning to try to understand from her perspective, based on her history, how she feels about things, not be a whiny little baby. ⁓ Men men are men are whiners. I mean we we turn into these little tiny children ⁓ and you know it it becomes ⁓

becomes disrespect, it becomes separation. It I go off in my corner and sulk. And while she’s working on her voice, I’m working on hearing her. ⁓ And now our conversations ⁓ we used to fight all the time about sex. ⁓ That was that was the that was the main thing. We have not fought about sex ⁓ once since this class has ended. Never. Not at all.

speaker-1 (00:07:38)
That was the

speaker-1 (00:07:44)
Yeah. Never. ⁓ No. Except that one time. No kidding. Just kidding. No. ⁓

speaker-0 (00:07:54)
Carrie, that must have been a massive transition for you. That’s a lot of years of not speaking up. Do you remember those first time when you gave it a go? What that was like for you?

speaker-1 (00:08:08)
⁓ it was during the program when I was starting to practice that. ⁓ And ⁓ it was hard. It was very nerve-wracking. ⁓ when he would come out with something and I would have to, you know, go over it in my brain. Do I say it, do I not say it? This is gonna cause ⁓ a conversation, an argument that I don’t have time for. We might be in the car driving somewhere, and I’m like,

I don’t have time to cry. We’re gonna be somewhere in five minutes and this is gonna drag out and then we’re both gonna feel horrible. ⁓ so it it was a lot of risk, a lot of risk for me to just say what I wanted and and or or what I was thinking, you know, just ⁓ kind of bare my soul. ⁓ and ⁓ you know, I can’t I can’t remember anything specific. ⁓

I remember. I remember Yeah, you remember?

speaker-2 (00:09:09)
Yeah, the first one was was about a question I asked about trying something and we were on the way to go to dinner to meet our kids and we we were about five minutes away, seven minutes away from the restaurant ⁓ and I threw this out there and I the conversation went really well. If if if I remember correctly.

speaker-1 (00:09:25)
I think

speaker-1 (00:09:32)
You’re thinking the same thing I’m thinking, it didn’t go well for me. But I spoke up. Right.

speaker-2 (00:09:37)
But I thought I think I I thought I listened and I didn’t

speaker-1 (00:09:39)
It turned out I thought I didn’t respond. Yeah, it turned out so well. ⁓ I was completely surprised. I told I said what my piece was, I told my truth my truth, ⁓ and he actually did what he ex just i described that he did. He listened, he paused, he heard what I said, he ⁓ did not react and try to defend himself. ⁓

speaker-2 (00:10:04)
Didn’t try to make it.

speaker-1 (00:10:05)
He didn’t make excuses. He totally heard me. And that was one of the very first times that I was like, my gosh. ⁓ I am being validated for having a feeling ⁓ and saying it and not being, you know, ⁓ shot down at all ⁓ to make him look like the good guy or for me to come around to his point of view. It just it just felt so good to speak and be heard.

And ⁓ of course that good experience led into me opening up more and becoming v more vulnerable and more vulner vulnerable. So I would say thing start saying things to him and telling him stories about all of those inner things that are in the back of our hearts and in the back of our minds and the back of our hearts that make us who who I am. I’d say we for women, any women that women that are listening, but for myself

I told him stuff I had never told him and I had been thinking about and basing my relationship from thirty years ago, thirty-five years ago before we even married. You know, I mentioned that I was Catholic. So, ⁓ you know, there were things that happened early on in our relationship before we were married that really ⁓ made a huge ⁓ impact on me and relationships and what I thought a relationship should be and

how that didn’t happen. ⁓ and so rather than bringing it up later, you know, I was like, well, I guess this is what it is. I guess this is how it’s gonna be. ⁓ so when I finally told him, you know, ⁓ that he wasn’t happy about things. It it was a hard hit to his you know, his ego, his emotions and what he thought our relationship was based upon. But he thought about it, he reflected on it, he heard me.

He saw through his own shock ⁓ and surprise. And then realized, you know what? What the fact that I was telling him any of the things, whether it be that situation or any, but the fact that I was telling him ⁓ made ⁓ our relationship deeper because he could see another layer of me. ⁓

speaker-1 (00:12:30)
and how I move in the world and how I relate to the world and why I make the choices I do and why ⁓ I’ve, you know, chosen to ⁓ to live the way that I do. And ⁓ because he reacted as calmly and as cool as he did, he understood me better and I felt so much better.

speaker-2 (00:12:51)
And it’s now to the point where, you know, it initially when she would say stuff prior to the class, it it was an insult to me. You know, it was attack on me. It was it was you saying that you don’t love me. ⁓ And now she can bring up stuff and I don’t take it that way. I don’t take it personally. I take it as she’s trying to tell me how to be better for her. Like and how to how to help her be who she needs to be. Because for so long she was doing things because I wanted to do them.

speaker-1 (00:13:20)
Or I was worried that he wasn’t gonna take it well. I didn’t want to hurt his feelings. I didn’t want to cause a problem in his heart because he would hold on to this stuff. ⁓ Everything that I said or did that was negative, that became his ⁓

speaker-2 (00:13:32)
My ⁓ self-esteem was completely based on prayer. ⁓ And one of the things I learned was just how much of a how much of a pressure that is, how much of a weight it had to have been to be responsible for someone else’s happiness, what they think of themselves, how they’re gonna be, how they’re gonna think of things. That’s that’s that’s it’s so much pressure. And so now I think she she can say stuff and she doesn’t have that pressure.

speaker-1 (00:13:52)
That’s about right. Yeah.

speaker-1 (00:14:02)
I don’t I ⁓

speaker-2 (00:14:04)
I I don’t base who I am and who we are off of what she can do for me, ⁓ emotionally, physically, whatever. It’s it’s separate now.

speaker-1 (00:14:14)
We talked about this yesterday on our XD ⁓ and we were talking about secrets and stuff like that. He’s Do you have any secrets right now? And I was like, Yes. He’s like, ⁓ What are they? And I told him, and it was fine. You know, it it it again, it was me taking a deep breath because for the past week I’m like, Do I tell him? Do I not tell him? It’s awfully private. I’m kind of embarrassed, you know. ⁓ just because of my upbringing, I’ve been always very private and you know, ⁓ but I told him.

And it felt good and I knew we were closer and I was like, okay, that door is open now. ⁓ That’s good. And he he just constantly, you know, surprises me and reinforces ⁓ that behavior of me telling him and God it feels so good to be able to tell him all the things. my gosh, it feels so good. Yeah. Yeah.

speaker-2 (00:15:07)
It makes us closer. It makes I fallen in love with her more now because I know more about her. She shared herself a hundred percent now without fear. And it just I see the beauty in her now. You know, I I was I was telling her yesterday during our XD that I went from thinking that everything was a we and that she was contributing to the we. She was contributing to the we. Not contributing to the we, which was the biggest problem.

speaker-1 (00:15:14)
Without fear.

speaker-1 (00:15:30)
Or not contributed.

I think we’re defined in the wheat. Right.

speaker-2 (00:15:36)
And now I see her for who she is and the beautiful things that and I’ve I felt like I did that before. I mean, I’ve always been complimentary. I’ve always supported her. I’ve always been her biggest cheerleader. But I still thought of her in terms of she’s my wife. It’s us. And now I see that she ha I went to a thing for her for her work the other day. And and I was ⁓ I didn’t I don’t like social things. I’m I’m pretty much an introvert and we’re in the middle of something.

And she ⁓ convinced me to go and ⁓ your friends convinced me to go.

speaker-1 (00:16:11)
⁓ You chose to go.

speaker-2 (00:16:13)
I did choose I should choose to go. And and it turned out to be the greatest night that I’ve had in a long time because I got to see her in her element and see people appreciate her and compliment her on the things that I see. And I was beaming. I just thought, man, I have hit the jackpot. I just really have. And that wouldn’t have been like I I would have been so introverted up there and just so nervous. I probably wouldn’t have paid attention to anything other than, ⁓ my gosh, is somebody gonna talk to me?

But I got to I got to support her and I got to see her and it awful.

speaker-1 (00:16:45)
It was great. Awesome. Mm-hmm.

speaker-0 (00:16:48)
Wow. Carrie, when you’re about to say something, you know, those early days or even now, because being vulnerable and telling the truth is hard no matter when. Do you say anything to yourself? Is there like a mantra or do you like how do you get it out ⁓ after so long of not sharing it? I’m just thinking of women listening, you know, and like they’re like, how do you start?

speaker-1 (00:17:16)
⁓ early on in the program, ⁓ when we had some of our very first experiences of me, you know, saying my piece, I just ⁓ had to just do it. I just had to do it. ⁓ And ⁓ sometimes it was because we were in the middle of a conversation and I was ⁓

upset ⁓ or you know ’cause we had a lot of heated conversations during the program. There was a lot of really deep stuff, but it needed to happen.

speaker-2 (00:17:57)
Yeah, I th ⁓ the group sessions with with the men separated the women, it led to us having conversations afterwards. And that was usually the the point at which she felt that she could do it. Now I don’t know what mental process she went like she’s saying how it went through, but early on i the conversations came after each of us had our male or female ⁓

speaker-1 (00:18:18)
Meetings and stuff like that. Yeah. So I felt like ⁓ you know, he would bring up the conversation because of his session. So because this was part of the class, it gave me s more permission ⁓ to say it. It was my homework to say it. It was my responsibility, my part of the effort to say it, even if it was very uncomfortable.

So a lot of times I just had to just go in all ham, you know, just say it. ⁓ but right before, right before I would say it, I’m like, do I say it? Do I not say it? Do I say it do I say? Do I say it I not say it? This gonna hurts feelings, it kinda hurts feelings, you know, and I’m like, ⁓ it’s hard. It’s really hard to grab that. ⁓ but even now, you know, several months into it, you know, I still

It’s not the same. I don’t have that same fear, but I still ⁓ have privacy, you know, issues. I’m not part of the new generation where everything in my life is online. I don’t talk about things. The fact that kids today can, you know, tell their boyfriend in high school, hey, will you hold my tampons? I’m like, no! ⁓ my god.

women don’t have periods, we don’t do that. No, you know, it’s like ⁓ just there’s there was so much privacy when I was growing up. ⁓ you keep all the personal stuff. So you know ⁓ you know like yesterday ⁓ I’ve been I’ve been working on ⁓ on trying something ⁓ you know in the pleasurable realm that I I’m I I’m still debating whether I feel comfortable ⁓

Where the God thing is concerned ⁓ and I’m just gonna tell him. I’m gonna tell him because I know he’s thinking about it. I know he wants to know how things are going. And I was like, just get it out so I can be done with it. Tell him what my fears are, tell him what concerns are. And then he takes it really well. So it’s like, why why was I afraid to tell him? You know, it’s because it’s a habit. And habits are so hard to break.

speaker-0 (00:20:17)
Like okay.

speaker-1 (00:20:42)
So hard to break. And I think that’s one of the things that we talk about is that when we, you know, start to backslide a little bit, ⁓ we remember the program and we say, okay, this is compassion. We have to realize that a habit of 30-some years is not going to be changed by ⁓ you know just the flip of a switch. It’s like

At first it’s like, wow, that’s amazing. I know all this great information. You will agree. ⁓ It feels so cool. Wow, that light switch is turned on. But then ⁓ as life happens, illness happens, work happens, job change happens, kids have problems happens, you know, all of those things happen. You’re exhausted when you come home every day. ⁓ I just lost my train of thought. But it

speaker-2 (00:21:37)
We had a major issue about th three or four weeks after the class. We re we regressed. It was on w we had a cruise. It was our anniversary cruise. ⁓ Yeah. And like day day three I said something stupid. And and it wasn’t stupid. It was a it was a question that I wasn’t ⁓ it was a question, but based on her history and based on how things that we’ve talked about it it triggered her.

speaker-1 (00:21:48)
Happy anniversary. Woo!

speaker-1 (00:22:04)
It did. It invalidated me. It made me feel

speaker-2 (00:22:08)
Yeah, it did. And ⁓ it affected the rest of our crews. We still had a good time, but there was always something wrong. Like we knew and we’d ask each other, What’s good are you all right? Yes, I’m fine. ⁓ No you’re not. I know you’re not. No, I’m fine. ⁓ And it just kind of and it built for like ⁓ I guess three weeks we were like that.

speaker-1 (00:22:26)
It was a little while.

speaker-2 (00:22:28)
It it took it took a long time, but then the way it fixed itself was we were in we had an X D ⁓ and ⁓ I said I said something to the effect of look, we gotta talk about this and she said, Yes yes, we have to talk about this. ⁓ And so we talked about it and we did the stuff that the to the c class taught us and we’ve been on an up we’ve been on a a ⁓ a great slope upward since then.

speaker-1 (00:22:53)
Mm-hmm. ⁓

speaker-0 (00:22:54)
Do you mind sharing what you said? What you asked? ⁓

speaker-2 (00:22:58)
Yeah, it was ⁓ because we were on the cruise, I asked if we were still gonna have our set X D time. ⁓ And ⁓ she came back with the the entire trip is an XD. I consider that an XD. And I said, No, we’re supposed to have time just the two of us separate. ⁓ And that’s ⁓

speaker-1 (00:23:19)
Pause you. Pause. So he’s asking this question, but we had just had some intimate time over the past day or so that we had been you know, ⁓ in Fort Lauderdale and then on the cruise and stuff. I mean, ⁓ he was always with this guy that’s like, ⁓ if we were traveling and we’re going to hotel, that’s sex time. And I’m like, no, that’s like I’m chilling out time and that that was always pressure for me.

So the fact that we were on a high and we were getting along and we had these intimate moments on the cruise early on ⁓ and it was natural and it was just a great experience. And then he brings up an XD and I’m like, what the heck?

speaker-2 (00:24:02)
But I was simply just asking. I was just simply asking I ⁓ was just asking because it was scheduled. So I was wondering if we were still gonna have that time. Because I I didn’t think I didn’t think of the whole thing as an XD because it there’s a lot of people around. You know, it’s a we didn’t have a chance to to be grounded together alone.

speaker-1 (00:24:05)
Okay, I’m fine. ⁓

speaker-1 (00:24:21)
They weren’t around at night in the bedroom. it just showed. ⁓

speaker-2 (00:24:23)
Yeah.

speaker-0 (00:24:26)
You the the pressure, you know, like it’s so sensitive. ⁓ Reason, right? Because it’s the pressure surrounded your sex life for how many years? You know, a lot of years. And so and so you’re just starting to feel that little bit of freedom, ⁓ you know, ⁓ Carrie. And you’re starting to kind of breathe a little and maybe feel a little bit of empowerment, like, I’m leading this, I want sex, I’m discovering myself.

speaker-1 (00:24:31)
It was

speaker-0 (00:24:55)
And then Ryan asks an innocent question, you know, it’s sort of a factual scheduling question. And ⁓ all of that heaviness and all of that weight comes rushing back. Nobody’s fault, but it is what it is, right?

speaker-1 (00:25:09)
One of ⁓ one of the the really big trigger points for me that had happened ⁓ very early in our marriage. ⁓ and and maybe, you know, lots of women out there feel the same way is that when I was pregnant with my second child, ⁓ you know, I had a ⁓ a a little four-year-old and then I was pregnant and I was working at, you know, a middle school and I was like ⁓

So my head was exploding and he’s like, I’m feeling alone. ⁓ And he felt he needed more attention, physical attention from me, ⁓ and he decided that maybe we should schedule it. So ⁓ I was kind of put on a schedule that we needed to do this in take care of him.

speaker-2 (00:26:01)
Reluctantly. I didn’t put you on a schedule, but you agreed to the schedule. Okay. Because of pressure. ⁓

speaker-0 (00:26:06)
Yeah, through conditioning. Through conditioning, she was conditioned to say yes.

speaker-1 (00:26:10)
⁓ Exactly. You know Yeah. So the whole ⁓ but ⁓ again, it I wasn’t in it mentally any of those times. I had enough in my head. ⁓ so scheduling is a trigger for me. It’s really big. It was hard for me either even to want to schedule XDs. ⁓ I we talked about that. We really discussed that. It’s like maybe would just kind of flow in and out of that, but

speaker-2 (00:26:11)
She didn’t have an option to say no. ⁓

speaker-1 (00:26:40)
It was a huge deal when I finally ⁓ took a picture of my calendar over several months and I had XD on all of our Sundays at this time. And he felt so validated because he is a scheduler and I’m not. And he knew I how how I felt about it. So the fact that his comment dealt with the schedule when we are ex ⁓ having something at the cruise that was just

So good and so natural, which is what I always just wanted, just flow into this natural relationship. And it felt good and I felt good. And then ⁓ I felt like he was saying I wasn’t good enough. ⁓ Are we gonna schedule XT? I’m like, I I I’ve been giving you everything that I am. Why? Why do I need to schedule something when everything is wonderful right now and we’re having this great experience?

So it was it was painful. It really, really hurt me. And I told him early on, I said, now Brian, during the class, I said, ⁓ Ryan, I said, ⁓ if you ⁓ make a mistake, now that you have gone gone through the class and you have learned all these wonderful things and you’re changing, I said, it’s gonna hurt me more. It’s gonna make a difference more, and it’s gonna have

I’m gonna have a harder time getting over it because I know you know. I know that you are aware of the problems ⁓ between ⁓ men and women and ⁓ the society and the whole thing. and and that it really happened, you know, when he brought it up, it’s like I just felt like I was gut punched and ⁓ it took me ⁓ a while. And then I could tell he was trying real hard.

to make it better. You know, he wanted so bad to backtrack and make it better. But in the more that he was doing that, the more it wasn’t real. ⁓ It was like trying to press something into a mold again. ⁓ and it didn’t feel natural. And so it just kind of just lingered. And unfortunately we still had a good time, but unfortunately that that lingered too much. But ⁓ it was a good experience to go through.

speaker-1 (00:29:10)
⁓ after the program, on our own, living life, to say, all right, this is fragile. ⁓ And

speaker-2 (00:29:18)
And it takes it takes the work. ⁓ It’s a lifetime change. You have to you have to put in the work. That’s one thing I tell people when I talk about the classes if you take the class thinking it’s just gonna fix things, ⁓ and you’re gonna have more sex and that’s just it, and you’re not willing to put in the work, it’s it’s you’re gonna fail. It’s it’s gonna be miserable. It’s not gonna work. But if you put in the work, my life is so much better now.

speaker-1 (00:29:20)
It takes work.

speaker-2 (00:29:47)
Not just in the bedroom, but ⁓ so much better now because of the work we put into it ⁓ and that we continue to put into it.

speaker-0 (00:29:57)
I love that you mentioned, Carrie, the piece about the sensitivity that now he knows now you’re gonna be now it’s gonna hurt more. It’s so honest. I’ve never heard anyone articulate it like that. And that is so true. What was that like for you, Ryan, hearing that? Because I know what the men were constantly saying, it’s okay to make mistakes and try your best and and that kind of stuff.

speaker-2 (00:30:20)
Yeah, it it it it it it’s a lot it’s a lot of pressure. We switched the pressure of of her from her on her shoulders and now I have this extra pressure of of I have to get this right. ⁓ And ⁓ it’s difficult to deal with. I understand it ⁓ and I ⁓

speaker-2 (00:30:44)
I know that that that it’s it’s true, but I also know that we have the tools to get through it. ⁓ So even though even though w we we talk about we’re gonna mess up. Both of us are gonna make mistakes. It’s gonna happen. Yeah, she’s gonna get hurt a lot more than she would have before because but we now have the tools and the the the vocabulary and the safety to talk about it ⁓ and those issues don’t last as long.

speaker-0 (00:31:09)
⁓ So when you came back and had that conversation, what did that sound like?

speaker-2 (00:31:16)
⁓ basically what what she just said, she she told me how much it hurt her. ⁓ how ⁓ we had had ⁓ a few days prior to we had been intimate ⁓ and her intimacy now for her is she’s she’s a lot more open with herself and and she’s present. So which is huge, which is huge for her. ⁓ And ⁓

speaker-1 (00:31:38)
Yeah.

speaker-0 (00:31:39)
Can we can we pause there for a second? Like what do you mean? I ⁓ mean you both can answer. What does that mean for you when you say more present than before?

speaker-1 (00:31:48)
It means that I don’t mind being there. ⁓ it means that you know, bef before we took the class and the reason why I wanted to take the class, ⁓ and it was it was because ⁓ I ⁓ felt so alone but still wanted to make him feel, you know good, validated his self esteem.

I would I would be in the shower at the end of the evening, the end of the day, and I would be crying and I would be praying, Lord, please just help me get through this. And it wasn’t about ⁓ me ⁓ not wanting to be with my husband. I you know, I love my husband, but ⁓ I just didn’t ⁓ want to do that.

I didn’t want to be, you know, physical when I’m exhausted. I didn’t want to be feeling like if I don’t do it, then he’s gonna be ⁓ grumpy and mopey for days and days. And then I’m feeling ⁓ horrible. And then I feel I have to do it. So, you know, it wasn’t about me not ⁓ loving him or wanting to be with him. It was just ⁓ I didn’t have it in me to give. ⁓ And I didn’t feel like my bucket was being filled.

⁓ ever. ⁓ and I know he he has always been very complimentary and he’s been very, you know, pro carry and you know, letting me go and do what I need to do. Go hang out with your friends, go and do this. You know, he’s always been so, so, so supportive of me all the time. ⁓ but ⁓ it’s just that ⁓ I just couldn’t. I just couldn’t. ⁓

speaker-2 (00:33:43)
And when when she finally would let herself ⁓ like get herself to do it, ⁓ she wasn’t there mentally. She wasn’t she was it was ⁓ it was to get a task done. Yeah, it was a duty. ⁓ And now it’s not because she’s choosing when ⁓ she doesn’t have the pressure anymore. Yeah. ⁓ it’s not about the my end result, you know, like it is ⁓ most of the time. ⁓

speaker-1 (00:33:49)
What?

speaker-0 (00:33:53)
It was a duty, yeah.

speaker-1 (00:34:11)
I feel way more flirtatious now though. ⁓ Because if I, you know, do something or say something or flash or whatever the case may be, now it’s just like haha, we’re being fun. Rather than ⁓ be it being a promise for something later that he thought that was. ⁓ I guess I’m gonna I guess I’m gonna get done tonight. ⁓ I hope I get done. And then he’s disappointed when it’s like, No, no, man, that was

That was that moment back when I was awake and feeling flirtatious and fun. ⁓ but now I can do that and because he just absorbs that and just enjoys that moment for what it is, and then we move on with the day, and there’s no promises made and there’s no, you know. ⁓ Exactly. See, you and I at the same time.

speaker-0 (00:35:01)
There’s no contract. ⁓

speaker-1 (00:35:05)
contract made that this is what I’m signing up for three hours later I’m like nah man that’s again that’s like scheduling again. It’s like I can’t promise you how I’m gonna feel later. I don’t I don’t roll that way. ⁓ I just don’t.

speaker-2 (00:35:18)
But ⁓ the great thing is is that she’s so much irritatious now and it we have a lot of fun together. ⁓ I mean she’s she continually shocks me with some of the stuff she comes up with. Just ⁓

speaker-0 (00:35:19)
It’s playful.

speaker-1 (00:35:22)
It’s more fun.

speaker-1 (00:35:35)
You guys are adorable. You’re adorable. They’re giggling. They’re giggling. ⁓

speaker-0 (00:35:40)
Red and giggling. ⁓

speaker-2 (00:35:42)
We had a din we had dinner with our daughter. We had our this is this is hilarious. We had dinner with our daughter last night and we were talking about the class and we were talking about she’s Yeah, she’s in the late twenties. ⁓ So we’re sitting there and I’ll let you tell was what you want, but it was hilarious.

speaker-1 (00:35:52)
⁓ She’s in her late twenties now.

speaker-1 (00:36:01)
I I don’t remember all the circumstances. I just remember we we were talking probably a little bit about the class and ⁓ just our relationships and ⁓ how we were talking and better and stuff like And I had a s I had a a a cami on and then I had a sweatshirt on, like a zipped sweatshirt. ⁓ And ⁓ at one time I just had it open and I held it so she couldn’t see me, but he could see me and I flashed him. ⁓ And he was like Gosh ⁓ and then and then my daughter

speaker-0 (00:36:27)
Mm-hmm.

speaker-1 (00:36:32)
⁓ Mom and Dad, you’re still my mom and dad. I don’t need to see that. ⁓ I’m really glad that you’re having a great time and that you love each other, but ⁓ I’m still your child ⁓ with the fact that you know it was right there and then we were laughing and we thought that was hilarious. Fun. So funny. It was it was just fun to say s slightly inappropriate flirtatious things to him in front of her because she’s got her own experience and I

speaker-2 (00:36:49)
Well.

speaker-1 (00:37:01)
I I knew she could handle that. ⁓ but

speaker-2 (00:37:06)
But in the past, to go back to the conversation, in the past that would have meant to me that something’s gonna happen later. You know, that ⁓

speaker-0 (00:37:13)
⁓ This this indicates that the environment between you two has completely shifted. So Ryan, I really want you to spell it out to the men listening. ⁓ You know, because ⁓ Yeah, because we could say right now, well, Carrie wasn’t like this before, and now she’s changed. I know Carrie was like this before, ⁓ but the environment that she was not in the right environment. The environment shifted.

speaker-1 (00:37:19)
It’s absolutely clear.

speaker-1 (00:37:25)
Yeah. ⁓

speaker-0 (00:37:41)
And her true self came out to play and have fun and explore and be curious. So what have you done that that has created this environment where this is safe now?

speaker-2 (00:37:54)
Excuse me. ⁓ versus being able to handle stuff and not have my self esteem be dependent upon her. That weight has been lifted.

speaker-0 (00:38:03)
How do you how do you do that? Like ⁓ practically.

speaker-2 (00:38:07)
⁓ I I think you you have to really look at yourself. ⁓ And ⁓ to be honest, I didn’t love myself before. I I didn’t I didn’t I don’t think I even really liked myself. I at the time I thought I did. But there’s a point in the class where we we spent time thinking about who who do we want to be remembered by? Like how what we want to be remembered for. And I spent a lot of time thinking about what I want my kids to think of me and I want what my wife to think of.

And writing it down was the key, writing down the different things. And then I would look at ⁓ what I could change, what I needed to work on, and things that just were so ingrained in me that ⁓ it just wasn’t gonna fix stuff. So ⁓ that was a big thing. The next thing was to realize that sex isn’t the thermometer of our marriage. It it doesn’t

It’s it’s a part of a healthy marriage. ⁓ And if you’re not healthy, it’s not gonna happen. But ⁓ it wasn’t an indicator to me that I could say that, well, we’re not we’re not we’re not married because we’re we’re just friends. We just live in the same place. You know, we’re best friends that live in the same place. I used to say that. And ⁓ to be honest with you, I went from thinking about sex all the time ⁓ and through the class and through learning about her and and now that she is so playful.

speaker-1 (00:39:22)
You did a lot of things.

speaker-2 (00:39:34)
I don’t think about sex anymore. Well, no, I don’t think about it like I don’t think about it like I I did think about it. Like I would always wonder when it was gonna happen next. I actually kept a calendar one year just to figure out if I like if I was nuts. So I would mark the calendar on the days. ⁓ And ⁓ I don’t wonder when it’s gonna happen again. I don’t think about ⁓ it because I know that ⁓ now she’s in a place with the pressure off of her that

speaker-1 (00:39:36)
Lies. ⁓

speaker-0 (00:39:39)
⁓ No

speaker-2 (00:40:04)
If she feels open to it, she’s gonna let me know. I could be asleep and she’ll wake me up. You know, it’s just it’s it’s like that. So she has done that a couple times. ⁓ but I think that that’s I think that’s what guys need to realize is that the pressure is so much and it’s so in ⁓ women’s faces that once you take that away and allow them to be who they are.

speaker-1 (00:40:12)
I’ve done that a couple times. ⁓

speaker-2 (00:40:34)
They’re they’re gonna show you a beauty in ⁓ every aspect that you can think about. You’re gonna see their brain, you’re gonna see their talent, you’re gonna see their creativity, and you’re gonna see their sexuality. Because we we are sexual. Humans are sexual. ⁓ Even women that that h I quote would say she w she she hated it. She hated the thought of it. And now ⁓ we’re we have a lot of fun.

speaker-1 (00:40:56)
When ⁓ during our marriage, for a lot of our marriage, he would he would say that I was asexual. ⁓ Or ⁓ I was an ice queen. ⁓ Or, you know, all these types of things.

speaker-2 (00:41:14)
That was that was an occasional expression. It wasn’t what I called her.

speaker-1 (00:41:17)
It wasn’t a normal nickname. It wasn’t a nickname. but ⁓

speaker-0 (00:41:24)
But it made an impression on you. ⁓

speaker-1 (00:41:26)
Huge impression. But the fact is is that in my head and in my body, I’m like, I am a sexual person. I do watch Hallmark all the freaking time. ⁓ I love the love stories. I love the genuine connections that I see. That’s innocent and yes, you know they’re gonna kiss. It’s that’s the joy of it. It’s just you know how it’s gonna end. And it’s it’s just all of that. But he would call me all of these things.

And I’m like, you are missing all of me. I’m not that ⁓ ice cube. It’s just ⁓ you are not letting me melt. ⁓ look at that metaphor. Thank you. Thank you. I know I’m amazing. I’ll be here all weekend.

speaker-0 (00:42:10)
That’s really clever.

speaker-2 (00:42:15)
But that’s that’s really what guys need to do to change it is to take the pressure off and to start seeing your your partner as ⁓ the beautiful person they are and stop stop thinking about it. Stop making it everything. ⁓ Because it isn’t everything and when it happens now, I wouldn’t go back six months to a year if you for all the money in the world. ⁓ There’s no way I’d go back there.

speaker-1 (00:42:31)
Feels

speaker-2 (00:42:44)
Because what we have now both in the bedroom and outside is so much better. ⁓ Did do we do it more? I don’t know that we do. Probably do a little bit more. I would like it more, but ⁓ you know.

speaker-1 (00:42:58)
But I feel like even if it’s not that, it’s ⁓ other ways of communicating, other ways of intimacy that you know, off also fill up that’s going to s you know, bed without a shirt on and having skin to skin, or whether it’s you know, ⁓ having a little extra kissing or something like that. You know, it still fills ⁓ that thing and because you’re looking

speaker-2 (00:43:11)
I used to always say that.

speaker-1 (00:43:28)
things differently and thinking sex impenetration doesn’t have to be the end. There’s other ways to feel close to me ⁓ then it continues to have you feel satisfied. I know guys out there are gonna be saying, nah man. ⁓ You know, ⁓ come on.

speaker-2 (00:43:42)
Mm-hmm. It does.

speaker-2 (00:43:50)
Yeah, I I would have been one of those, but I’m I’m honest. It’s it it it’s a life changer. Once you take that pressure off and you allow the ⁓ your partner to be who they are, yeah, ⁓ they start to open up more ⁓ and you start to you you start to see their love in other ways too. Like it isn’t like she doesn’t love me because she’s not having sex with me. Now I see the little things that she does that that I probably wouldn’t have paid attention to before, but now I see them as like huge deals.

speaker-1 (00:44:19)
Big deals. You know how when, you know, you’re in college or whenever it is that you meet your your spouse ⁓ and ⁓ you know, you’re just watching them, you don’t really know them too much. And you’re like, what attracts you to that person? Their personality, they’re funny, they’re pretty or handsome, ⁓ or you know, maybe I like the way that they like puppies, or ⁓ you know, whatever the case may be. ⁓ I think that

After having taken your class and the work that that Ryan has done, ⁓ he can see that again in me. He can see my individuality, my ⁓ independence, my talents, my gifts, ⁓ my strengths, my weaknesses, all of those things. And because he is not

I don’t feel that he is forcing me into this box of you have to do this, you’re my wife, that is your duty, that is your, you know, all the things, you have to make me happy, you have to take care of all of my needs. Because he’s not forcing me into that box anymore and letting me be who I am, I can return to all of those great qualities that I have that I that attracted him to me to begin with.

And so I feel more confident about myself. I f you know, as an individual, as well as a friend, as well as a spouse, as well as a lover, you know, all of those things. ⁓ And it just changes the dynamic and the tone, the atmosphere of just being together and all of the time that we that we spend.

speaker-2 (00:46:11)
But guys have to they have to understand that they have to do the work. They’re gonna they’re gonna hear things that it hurt. ⁓ They’re worth it. They’re gonna hear things that you just can’t believe. Now that you do, I I ⁓ I have a new un just respect for what women have to go through all the time now. And Yes. There’s a lot of there’s a lot of ⁓ but I think

speaker-1 (00:46:15)
You do it.

speaker-1 (00:46:32)
⁓ What are they? ⁓

speaker-2 (00:46:38)
I think if guys like I said like I said earlier, if you if you’re gonna take this thing and you think that it’s gonna be six weeks, eight weeks, ⁓ and everything’s gonna be perfect sexually, ⁓ that’s the you’re f you’re going at it wrong. You’re going at it completely wrong. And and it’s sad because you could be so much happier, not only with your wife, but with yourself if you just do the work.

speaker-1 (00:47:03)
Have to do a shout out. ⁓ All right, ladies, and well, guys, too, I guess. Cuddle up to your computer, your radio, whatever. Because I did say at the very beginning in my general admission, that I’m in my mid-50s. ⁓ And that’s women are going through some changes. Women are going through some freaking changes, and their whole insides.

are exploding. ⁓ Okay. ⁓ women, I know you’re nodding at me. Yes, girl, you’re saying, yes, preach it. It’s truth. So your body is hurting. You’re tired all the dang time. ⁓ You can’t remember. That’s why I’ve lost my train of thought so many times. Even here talking to you. I’m like, what I’m talking about? I don’t even know. Thanks for picking up. ⁓ But ⁓

⁓ even the sex drive is different. ⁓ you feel I feel like a dang sausage all the time. ⁓ so different because I’ve always maintained a very small frame and I’m s I’m relatively small, but I’m still 10 pounds heavier than I ever was. So I don’t feel good stretching all the time. So it is also gonna make a big difference on how we are relating to each other.

Because of the physio physiological differences that we as women have absolutely zero control over. We can’t even control our own bodies, let alone relate to somebody else and say, Hey, I’m gonna fit your needs. It’s like ⁓ I I can’t I can’t even bend over today, you know? I can’t even the women. ⁓ And the men because the men need to hear it. Yeah. It’s common.

If it’s not there yet, it’s coming. ⁓ but ⁓ it’s ⁓ being at this particular part of your life as my life as a woman and anybody who is going through those situations, I mean, there’s just a lot of things that play into just general health and you’re not getting all of the answers from your doctors and from you know ⁓

speaker-1 (00:49:28)
It’s it’s just a constant battle. So in addition to the struggles that that we have as a couple and have had as a couple, to have that extra layer added to it that we just can’t even control. And men, they ⁓ Ryan didn’t know, you know, and that’s one of his res that’s your respect ⁓ comment was what made me think of it, ⁓ is that he was like

my gosh, I can’t believe there hasn’t been more research done ⁓ on women’s health. Not only for me to know about my own body and how that works, but for him to understand and say, ⁓ okay, I get it. I get it. So ⁓ you know, at my age, for women who are my age and in in this situation, that’s definitely another aspect that ⁓ it’s another layer.

Let’s just say, ⁓ so how does this program even respond to that? Big time because I was thinking ⁓ everything ⁓ that I was ⁓ not wanting with him ⁓ was physiological or psychological. And then I realized the safety, the lack of pressure that took

so much off of that. It doesn’t mean that I still don’t hurt. It doesn’t mean that I still don’t have my moods and I’m exhausted and all of that. But ⁓ when ⁓ I ⁓ am ⁓ feeling ⁓ good, then it makes me want to be close. And I can be free and open and communicate and feel happy and playful ⁓ and ⁓ so I just

I just think that that is all worth saying. ⁓

speaker-0 (00:51:27)
is because I will often hear men in particular say, my wife doesn’t want a sex because she’s perimetapa or menopausal. And I’ll be like, I I can debunk that real quick. And ⁓ now I have this exact story to share with people. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓

speaker-1 (00:51:34)
Okay.

speaker-1 (00:51:42)
mean it’s real. We we ⁓ have and and there are times where we can barely move. But ⁓ you know, having that extra off is just so much of ⁓ a relief. It’s like one less burden. I I have my own burden to carry and it’s heavy. I don’t need to carry my husband’s burden. ⁓ And so it just just releases me to have fun.

When I can have some fun. And I think you benefit from that. definitely. Yeah.

speaker-0 (00:52:14)
Yeah. Wow, this has been such an amazing conversation. Thanks to both of you. I’m curious ⁓ maybe we can end with this. Ryan, you can start. What are you looking forward to in the future as when it comes to your sex life, to your relationship? Look, what are you and to your own personal development? What are you looking forward to kind of deepening and exploring further?

speaker-2 (00:52:36)
Or the sexual part, it’s ⁓ it’s I’m looking forward to ⁓

How ⁓ what are you laughing? I’m looking forward to the more that she feels comfortable, the more that she allows herself to be who she is, the more ⁓ it, you know, it the more it’s gonna happen. ⁓ The ⁓ pressure and and all that stress is so limiting that once you take and now she has to go through those personal religious things that she, you know, faith stuff and just

speaker-1 (00:52:45)
No. ⁓

speaker-2 (00:53:12)
issues that she may have with her own body and things like that. But she now is in a place where she can investigate those and she can process those without the pressure of me being on it. And I think I I hope, I I believe that it will just ⁓ it’ll make it more frequent. It’ll make it better and better each time, you know? And even if it doesn’t increase in frequency, the the quality of time that we spend together now is is just amazing. ⁓

So I look forward to that.

speaker-0 (00:53:42)
Yeah, to see to see her become freer and freer of those constraints from your relationship and then also from culture and and her her you know, the messages she received growing up. It’s it’s exciting to see your spouse become more free. ⁓

speaker-2 (00:53:58)
It is. And she’s such a beautiful person that that those aspects of her are ⁓ going to be amazing that she discovers, you know, and I I’m glad that I’m honored to be a part of that and to to witness that, you know. ⁓ As far as personally, ⁓ it’s ⁓ I look forward to just learning more about myself. ⁓ I look forward to putting in the work. I actually enjoy reviewing conversations to see if how I could have done it better.

⁓ how I could have listened better ⁓ if I if I catch myself being defensive. It makes me excited that I catch it.

speaker-1 (00:54:37)
And you bring it up to me and you apologize or you acknowledge it. I’m like, I’m so glad you said that. Thank you very much.

speaker-2 (00:54:42)
So I think I look forward to being the man that that I wrote down those notes. You know, she’s always talked about wanting the knight in shining armor and thought that she was marrying it and was surprised that I wasn’t. Well, I feel like I’m working towards it. ⁓ She’s she’s said that I’ve gotten better at that and and I am starting to turn into that knight.

speaker-1 (00:55:07)
He did a little AI thing with the picture that you can put your face on it. And he’s there with his knight, all of his little shining armor, and he’s got the horse in the background. I’m like, my gosh, that’s so cute. ⁓ Sorry. ⁓

speaker-0 (00:55:20)
That’s great. I love it because it’s going from a place of authenticity rather than performance. So it’s really kind of shifting the way we view masculinity, which is really cool. How about you, Carrie?

speaker-1 (00:55:33)
What was it question again? I think forward to what I look forward to. Okay. Yeah. ⁓

speaker-0 (00:55:37)
What are you what you thinking about for when it comes to the future? Do you have any sort of intentions you’re working on or things that you’re excited about?

speaker-1 (00:55:46)
⁓ I am excited just about the continuation of ⁓ feeling more comfortable with Ryan and when we go and do things and when we talk to, ⁓ you know, get to a point where I’m not having to even question whether I say something or not. I mean not in a bad way, but a truthful way, so that we can continue to grow. ⁓ of course, you know

I have really enjoyed when ⁓ I’m I’m being playful and and following my intuition, which was part of what we were doing. And then all of a sudden I’ll just kiss him. He’ll be talking and I’ll just kiss him. Which he doesn’t you don’t mind, right? Not at all. No. ⁓ I’ll just kiss him and I’ll kiss him until I’m done kissing him, you know, and then we’ll continue to talk. ⁓ And I just love ⁓

And I’m excited about continuing having that freedom of just expressing the way I want to express, which he’s benefiting from. ⁓ And I’m benefiting from. ⁓ and I the yeah, I can just express how I want to, when I want to, and then I’m like, I’m done. All right, keep going. We’re having a snack now, you know? And sometimes his mind is spinning. It’s like what we

speaker-2 (00:56:57)
She doesn’t have the where she can end it.

speaker-1 (00:57:12)
We were just ⁓ yeah, but I have to go and do the dishes now, you know, and I remember you talking about that on some of you know your times. But ⁓ so I’m just looking forward to continuing to grow in playfulness and in honesty ⁓ and ⁓ watching him grow in being confident about he who he is because he’s a pretty great guy. ⁓

You know, I I’ll keep around, I guess. I hope so. ⁓ and and I I have every faith that, you know, where the guys are are sometimes focused at the beginning of the program ⁓ on, you know, how is this gonna, you know, build up the ⁓ it it’s just ⁓ so much deeper than that. ⁓ and I

I just hope that for them too, because I’m it I’m just really enjoying having not only that very deep emotional connection now, deeper emotional connection, ⁓ but also how that is making me feel more free and I want to share myself fully more with him rather than just getting caught up in the the stress of and pressure of it all. ⁓

speaker-0 (00:58:35)
Ryan and Carrie, this has been such a delight. Thank you for making my week. It has been such a joy. And I know that everyone’s grinning from ear to ear listening to you two lovebirds talk. ⁓ boy. It’s super sweet. ⁓ so thank you everyone for listening right to the end. Thank you again for joining us and having the courage to share your story. And I’ll talk to you guys in the next one. Bye for now. ⁓

speaker-1 (00:58:46)
⁓